Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Venom Sam Nov 27, 2010 4:44 pm
Crouzz a écrit:Venom a écrit:
En 2011 Mclaren aura probablement un système hydraulique, évolution du système conçu en 98 par Newey et Ilmor .
désolé, Venom, mais j'ai pas compris de quoi tu parles sur cette phrase là
Un KERS hydraulique
- Spoiler:
- In 1998, McLaren Mercedes was developing a system designed to perform the same function as KERS. But after initially approving it, the FIA changed its mind and banned it.
The system was the brainchild of McLaren technical director Adrian Newey and his long-time friend Mario Illien, his counterpart at Mercedes engine builder Ilmor.
“Mario's a very good all-round engineer,” Newey explains. “He has a broad interest in engineering matters, not simply motor racing, and has always been keen on energy conservation, which he demonstrated in the Ilmor factory, (with) little things like using the heat from the (engine) dynamometer water to heat the factory in winter.
“He doesn't like wastage. He likes to be efficient. We discussed that energy storage is used commercially in various areas, and we started to think, 'this is something that could apply to F1.'”
That year's McLaren MP4-13, was one of history's great Grand Prix cars, and part of its advantage was in its light weight – as much as 40kg under the minimum limit. Newey and Illien started to think about how they could use the ballast needed to bring the car up to weight to gain performance – their answer was an energy recovery system.
They explored the various possibilities – a system based on batteries, a flywheel, and hydraulics – they settled on hydraulics, even though, as Newey admits, it is “technically the least favourable”.
“We already had what's known as a squish-plate pump, which is borrowed out of aircraft hydraulic pumps,” Newey says. “Basically it's a very efficient, variable-displacement, variable-demand hydraulic pump. We were using that to power the hydraulics on the car, which at the time was reasonably advanced because lots of people were simply using gear pumps which were much more wasteful.
“So Mario had the idea, why don't we go for a much higher output squish-plate pump and use that as a way of absorbing power from the rear axle under braking and being the motor in effect of putting the power back in under acceleration?”
High-pressure cylinders would have been placed alongside the engine as the energy store, and they would either be driven by the pump or drive it depending on whether the car was braking or accelerating.
Although McLaren recognised the system's flaws compared to the alternatives, hydraulics was the approach they felt would give the most performance for the least development time. They could link it up relatively easily with the technology on the car, and the pump's big benefit, Newey says, was “good response time” - one of the potential problems of a flywheel which, like the battery system, would have taken much longer to develop.
The system, they calculated, would have given them a lap time gain of 0.2sec – about half that being talked about with KERS for 2009. “But we had a slightly different set of criteria,” Newey says, “In that we didn't have any rules to work to, but we did have a tight budget and time-scale. So we felt a guaranteed 0.2sec reasonably quickly was a much better route than a theoretical 0.4sec two years away.”
Work started on the project, but then, Newey says, “very early on we recognised that we needed a clarification on whether it was legal or not”.
The problem was on the wording of the regulations, which said that propulsion had to come solely from a three-litre, four-stroke internal combustion engine.
“Of course,” Newey says, “the propulsion is initially being made by that, your simply re-harnessing it, and then reapplying it. But clearly there was going to be a debate as to its legality, so we approached the fia and they came back and said, no, it's good, it's exactly what we want, and yes, it's legal as far as we're concerned.”
Newey says that not only was the fia aware of its potential benefits in terms of public relations for the wider sport, it had discussed these with McLaren.
“(The system was approved) in terms of new technology,” he says. “Even back then, green was starting to become an issue. It wasn't quite as much in the forefront of the political agenda as it is now, but people were still talking about it, and this was something that was going to make a car more energy efficient.
“As far as we were concerned, we had the green light, regulation-wise, and then as we started to progress, suddenly we got a clarification saying, no, we've reconsidered and it's not legal.”
Newey would not comment on what he thought had happened, but at the time the speculation was that – as had happened with a number of systems over that period – Ferrari had got wind of it and had lobbied against it, fearing they were going to be put at a competitive disadvantage.
Charlie Whiting, the fia's technical delegate at the time, says now that not only can he not remember what happened, or even much about the project, he cannot find a record of the clarification in question. But a glance in the record books confirms the banning of the system, and Whiting does admit a rule was added for 1999 to explicitly outlaw energy recovery systems.
Even now, Newey finds it difficult to hide his frustration – it was not the first nor the last time a team he was working for had new technology outlawed in this way. In this case, though, that feeling is heightened by what he feels was a missed opportunity for F1 as a whole.
Motor Sport Magazine
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Solan Sam Nov 27, 2010 6:09 pm
FFFF a écrit:Red Bull-Renault n°1 et 2
McLaren-Mercedes n°3 et 4
Ferrari n°5 et 6
Euh, y'a pas un binz la ?
Logiquement les numéros 2011 sont liés au championnat pilotes et non constructeur, non ?
Alonso, vice champion, rapporte les n°3 et 4 à Ferrari je crois.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par sdaniel07 Sam Nov 27, 2010 6:12 pm
Non, les numéros sont attribués en fonction du classement constructeurs
Le numéro 1 est attribué au champion et pour la suite, c'est en fonction du classement des constructeurs.
Le numéro 1 est attribué au champion et pour la suite, c'est en fonction du classement des constructeurs.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Solan Sam Nov 27, 2010 6:15 pm
Merci de l'info, je découvre ça aujourd'hui ! Etonnant 
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Judas Prost Dim Nov 28, 2010 1:45 pm
Tu suis la F1 depuis quand?Solan a écrit:Merci de l'info, je découvre ça aujourd'hui ! Etonnant
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Solan Dim Nov 28, 2010 3:32 pm
Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par beuje Dim Nov 28, 2010 3:34 pm
Solan a écrit:Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
C'est logique si tu considère la F1 comme un sport d'équipe.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Judas Prost Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:06 pm
Ce qui est le cas normalement.beuje a écrit:Solan a écrit:Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
C'est logique si tu considère la F1 comme un sport d'équipe.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Kakashi Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:08 pm
Solan a écrit:Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
Hamilton 2ème de la saison 2007, à le n°22 en 2008.
Cà c'est de la logique
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par alexinho Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:09 pm
Troll de mauvaise qualité 
Edit : Ding, 1000
Edit : Ding, 1000
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par beuje Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:11 pm
Judas Prost a écrit:Ce qui est le cas normalement.beuje a écrit:Solan a écrit:Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
C'est logique si tu considère la F1 comme un sport d'équipe.
Normalement oui. Mais, et les consignes d'équipe ? Soit c'est un sport d'équipe et les consignes sont légales. Soient elles sont illégales et ce n'est pas un sport d'équipe.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Solan Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:15 pm
Kakashi a écrit:Solan a écrit:Pourtant assidument depuis 2000. J'avais jamais tilté je t'avoue ... en même temps, un vice champion qui se tape le n°5 la saison suivante ... bonjour la logique.
Hamilton 2ème de la saison 2007, à le n°22 en 2008.
Cà c'est de la logique
C'était pour l'histoire d'espionnage, c'est totalement différent.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Zelkin Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:20 pm
On est HS là...
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Kakashi Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:29 pm
Oui, donc lors du GP de Jerez 97 ( 
), Schumacher fut disqualifié mais en 98 il a bien eu le n°3
), Schumacher fut disqualifié mais en 98 il a bien eu le n°3
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par alexinho Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:31 pm
Décidément
Dans le cas d'Hamilton c'est McLaren qui a été disqualifiée tandis que dans le cas de Schumacher c'est Schumacher, non pas Ferrari.
C'est le championnat constructeur qui compte pour l'attribution des numéros, pas celui des pilotes
Dans le cas d'Hamilton c'est McLaren qui a été disqualifiée tandis que dans le cas de Schumacher c'est Schumacher, non pas Ferrari.
C'est le championnat constructeur qui compte pour l'attribution des numéros, pas celui des pilotes
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Mikasper Dim Nov 28, 2010 4:33 pm
Et Lewis, il a bien ru le N°2 en 2007 et pourtant, en 2006, sa saison de F1 a été transparente. 
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par sdaniel07 Dim Nov 28, 2010 6:06 pm
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par FFFF Lun Nov 29, 2010 12:41 am
On se rappelle qu'en 2009 le défis du kers pour la mécanique c'était la répartition des masses. Les écuries ont mis énormément de temps à s'y faire. Hélas McLaren et Ferrari ne pourront pas enprofiter puisque le règlement fige la répartition av/ar.
Par contre l'autre avantage pourra être du pdv pilote et notament Massa et Hamilton (Kubica et Alonso dans une moindre mesure) car l'autre énprme problème vient de la faculté à apprivoiser le freinage modifié par le kers et ce n'est pas une mince affaire, Fisichella s'en est mordu les doigts.
Par contre l'autre avantage pourra être du pdv pilote et notament Massa et Hamilton (Kubica et Alonso dans une moindre mesure) car l'autre énprme problème vient de la faculté à apprivoiser le freinage modifié par le kers et ce n'est pas une mince affaire, Fisichella s'en est mordu les doigts.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Crouzz Lun Nov 29, 2010 8:01 am
Merci Venom, je n'en avais gardé aucun souvenirVenom a écrit:Crouzz a écrit:Venom a écrit:
En 2011 Mclaren aura probablement un système hydraulique, évolution du système conçu en 98 par Newey et Ilmor .
désolé, Venom, mais j'ai pas compris de quoi tu parles sur cette phrase là
Un KERS hydraulique
- Spoiler:
The system was the brainchild of McLaren technical director Adrian Newey and his long-time friend Mario Illien, his counterpart at Mercedes engine builder Ilmor.
“Mario's a very good all-round engineer,” Newey explains. “He has a broad interest in engineering matters, not simply motor racing, and has always been keen on energy conservation, which he demonstrated in the Ilmor factory, (with) little things like using the heat from the (engine) dynamometer water to heat the factory in winter.
“He doesn't like wastage. He likes to be efficient. We discussed that energy storage is used commercially in various areas, and we started to think, 'this is something that could apply to F1.'”
That year's McLaren MP4-13, was one of history's great Grand Prix cars, and part of its advantage was in its light weight – as much as 40kg under the minimum limit. Newey and Illien started to think about how they could use the ballast needed to bring the car up to weight to gain performance – their answer was an energy recovery system.
They explored the various possibilities – a system based on batteries, a flywheel, and hydraulics – they settled on hydraulics, even though, as Newey admits, it is “technically the least favourable”.
“We already had what's known as a squish-plate pump, which is borrowed out of aircraft hydraulic pumps,” Newey says. “Basically it's a very efficient, variable-displacement, variable-demand hydraulic pump. We were using that to power the hydraulics on the car, which at the time was reasonably advanced because lots of people were simply using gear pumps which were much more wasteful.
“So Mario had the idea, why don't we go for a much higher output squish-plate pump and use that as a way of absorbing power from the rear axle under braking and being the motor in effect of putting the power back in under acceleration?”
High-pressure cylinders would have been placed alongside the engine as the energy store, and they would either be driven by the pump or drive it depending on whether the car was braking or accelerating.
Although McLaren recognised the system's flaws compared to the alternatives, hydraulics was the approach they felt would give the most performance for the least development time. They could link it up relatively easily with the technology on the car, and the pump's big benefit, Newey says, was “good response time” - one of the potential problems of a flywheel which, like the battery system, would have taken much longer to develop.
The system, they calculated, would have given them a lap time gain of 0.2sec – about half that being talked about with KERS for 2009. “But we had a slightly different set of criteria,” Newey says, “In that we didn't have any rules to work to, but we did have a tight budget and time-scale. So we felt a guaranteed 0.2sec reasonably quickly was a much better route than a theoretical 0.4sec two years away.”
Work started on the project, but then, Newey says, “very early on we recognised that we needed a clarification on whether it was legal or not”.
The problem was on the wording of the regulations, which said that propulsion had to come solely from a three-litre, four-stroke internal combustion engine.
“Of course,” Newey says, “the propulsion is initially being made by that, your simply re-harnessing it, and then reapplying it. But clearly there was going to be a debate as to its legality, so we approached the fia and they came back and said, no, it's good, it's exactly what we want, and yes, it's legal as far as we're concerned.”
Newey says that not only was the fia aware of its potential benefits in terms of public relations for the wider sport, it had discussed these with McLaren.
“(The system was approved) in terms of new technology,” he says. “Even back then, green was starting to become an issue. It wasn't quite as much in the forefront of the political agenda as it is now, but people were still talking about it, and this was something that was going to make a car more energy efficient.
“As far as we were concerned, we had the green light, regulation-wise, and then as we started to progress, suddenly we got a clarification saying, no, we've reconsidered and it's not legal.”
Newey would not comment on what he thought had happened, but at the time the speculation was that – as had happened with a number of systems over that period – Ferrari had got wind of it and had lobbied against it, fearing they were going to be put at a competitive disadvantage.
Charlie Whiting, the fia's technical delegate at the time, says now that not only can he not remember what happened, or even much about the project, he cannot find a record of the clarification in question. But a glance in the record books confirms the banning of the system, and Whiting does admit a rule was added for 1999 to explicitly outlaw energy recovery systems.
Even now, Newey finds it difficult to hide his frustration – it was not the first nor the last time a team he was working for had new technology outlawed in this way. In this case, though, that feeling is heightened by what he feels was a missed opportunity for F1 as a whole.
Motor Sport Magazine
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Solan Lun Nov 29, 2010 12:06 pm
Ferrari aurait débauché des personnels de chez Pininfarina pour la conception de la monoplace 2011.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par albertascari Lun Nov 29, 2010 1:01 pm
Pininfarina fait de superbes voitures de routes mais les embaucher en F1 ???_________________
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par alexinho Lun Nov 29, 2010 1:04 pm
Je pense que ça doit être pour leur expérience des matériaux composites ? J'imagine qu'avec le retour du KERS, il va falloir songer à alléger encore plus la voiture.
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par Largo Lun Nov 29, 2010 1:48 pm
Ferrari, je les sens bien pour cette année, ils ont tout les infos qu'ils veulent sur les besoins d'Alonso et son sur une pente méchamment ascendante au point de vue du développement sans essais privé.
Je vais me lancer pour 2011, exercice bien casse gueule et totalement inutile:
1- Alonso sur Ferrari
2- Tout les autres
C'est ti pas beau ?
Je vais me lancer pour 2011, exercice bien casse gueule et totalement inutile:
1- Alonso sur Ferrari
2- Tout les autres
C'est ti pas beau ?
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Re: Monoplaces 2011 - Ferrari F150 : Vendredi 28 janvier
par alexinho Lun Nov 29, 2010 1:56 pm
Tant qu'à faire un bon Alonso vs Hamilton, histoire de se marrer sur le forum
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